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Welcome to the alcohol freedom finders podcast with Justin Clark and me Barry Condon. In this episode, you'll hear how Justin and I to normal middle of the road drinkers found our freedom from alcohol. We'll also discuss how the perceived benefits of alcohol are illusions, how alcohol is the problem and not you. And her life can be a bit like the Truman show. Let's dive in.

Justine Clark: 0:24

So Barry, I guess the best place for us to start is at the beginning. So if you can tell me, a little about, about your story and what led you to becoming a coach ultimately.

Barry Condon: 0:37

Sure. Yeah. I guess, my story is not uncommon, as a, as a English guy growing up, son of Irish immigrants. So that the culture in England is very, alcohol centric. The Irish, traditionally are known rightly or wrongly, to love a drink and, Yeah, that was the sort of culture I grew up in. lots of sports, lots of, celebrations, work hard, play hard kind of, environment where we were pretty privileged. You know, I went away to, to, to, to private school and, and we were, you know, it was, a bit of a struggle to, to, to, to put us through private school for my, for our parents. So it was very much, you know, work hard, get everything out of it. You can play as much sports as you can. But. There was always, you know, the, what I saw from, from, from my parents and their friends and, and, and, and, you know, they all, you know, Worked hard, but they all, you know, after they played a bit of sport, it was always have a drink, always, you know, have a barbecue, have a drink, have a, you know, everything was, centered around drink. all, all the sort of downtime and, Being the youngest of three, I, my sister is seven years older than me, my brother is nearly five years older than me, so I was always the youngest, and hated it, and wanted to be like them, grown ups, and you know, I saw them, you know, growing up. You know, drinking the old beer in the old glass of wine, you know, when they were 15, 16, and, and, and I would be whatever, you know, 10, 11 and, and, you know, that's what I wanted to do. And so when the first opportunity came, you know, sneaking drinks here and there. You know, that's, that's what we did. And, and, and, and, and it was normal, you know, I didn't ever drink more than, than, than the people around me. And, you know, when I went away, to university, you know, I didn't drink, you know, compared to everybody else, I didn't feel like I drink that much. but you're looking back now, it, it, it, I didn't go to enough lectures because I always had hangovers and after two years, I didn't get the exams I needed to stay in. So it, it, it had a huge impact, you know, and, and back then I looked at it thinking, Oh, I was lazy and I was useless and blah, blah, blah. And I blame myself. But if I'm honest now, I can sort of see, well, you know, if I hadn't been drinking, then I would, you know, I was quite capable of, of, of, achieving, you know, what I needed to achieve to, to, to get through. So that was, you know, that, that, that, that was, where I was when I was, a student. So I got, I got, you know, basically thrown out of, of uni after two years. And, then went to the Alps, and, and worked there for, for, nearly five years. And, it Was also, you know, a culture of, of, every night is Saturday night. And, and I, and I loved it. And, and, and, you know, I, again, I didn't drink as much as, as, as some, I was always, You know, considered a bit of a lightweight compared to, to, to the guys that, that, that, were bigger than me and, and, and, more experienced in, in, in, you know, older and more experienced and, and, and I was sort of thought of, you know, that I would never become a problem drinker because I could never drink that much. And, but it, it, it sort of at some point, I guess when I came to the Netherlands, when, when I'd met my brother, the Alps. We spent a summer in, in London and then we went back and did another season in the Alps and then, ultimately ended up coming to the Netherlands where we, where we now live. And I've lived in the Alps for 25 years. And. And over the years, I guess the reasons I drank began to shift as you get older, you get more responsibilities, you, you have children, you have, a job that, that's, maybe, gives you, more things to stress about, a mortgage. And. Your time is, time is taken up by different things

Justine Clark: 4:24

It's not Saturday night anymore every night, is it? But you're used to drinking as a means of finishing the day, so I guess you started, rather than drinking in society, you started drinking for yourself then because you were used to that being how a day is.

Barry Condon: 4:40

yeah, yeah, I think, I think that's right. I think, I think, At a certain point when you've got responsibilities and children and, and, and a career where you, you know, you can't afford to go to the pub, every night and you can't afford to turn up with a hangover and you, to work and you can't have a hangover, and be a good parent on a Saturday morning, yeah, things shift, And, and, and many people make that transition from sort of student to, to, to grown up and, are able to, manage their drinking effectively and be much more mindful. but for me, it always sort of felt like, okay, well, if, if I get a chance. To drink, but I'm really going to take it. And, and so if we had, parties or, you know, I joined a cricket club and we would, you know, on, on Sundays, you know, we'd be, drinking after the match and on Wednesday nights we'd be drinking, after practice. And, yeah, I'd, I'd probably go for it as much and if not more than, than, than the most, but, I guess it was, it wasn't until I. moved from where I was. We lived in the middle of the Netherlands for seven or eight years. And then, maybe 10 years ago or 12 years ago, we moved to, to the west. And I didn't really know anybody. and and then suddenly looking back, I realized that it became less and less of a social thing and more of a thing that I just sort of did. And, Annette, my wife, was never one to sort of to drink at home. And I got more into drinking and into, into cooking and I, you know, I'd open a bottle of wine and, and drink, you know, most of that while I was cooking. And, and, and it just sort of. just gradually crept up on me. That, that I was drinking a little bit more, at home, and then, and then a lot more at home than, than I had done in the past. And I guess, yeah, the, the, the reason, why I drank was less to have fun and be social and, and, and, and more just to sort of. de stress and maybe numb out a little bit. And, and, and, and yeah, so, so that was, looking back that, that, that, that was a, a, a, a turning point and,

Justine Clark: 6:43

Can you also just, also just, speak to, because I know that, at one, at some point there's a shift where actually you're not drinking so much for the pleasure of drinking at the end of it. It's become a cycle of cravings and withdrawal. Did you hit that as well?

Barry Condon: 6:58

I did, I did. And, and that, that, that, I guess, once you sort of start, once you start questioning, am I drinking too much? Is it a problem? Then, Then it becomes a sort of, yeah, well, once you're aware of it, then, then it almost starts fulfilling itself. It, it becomes, a challenge to try and drink a little bit less, be a bit more mindful, and then it just becomes more and more important, and harder, to, to stick to any, any of the kind of goals that you, that you want to stick to. And it's, it's incredibly frustrating, when you don't understand why it is that with your. With your, you know, you, you make these plans in the morning and say to yourself, okay, today I'm having a day off. I'll have a drink on Friday. But today is Wednesday. I'm not having, I'm not drinking anymore this week until Friday. And then by the end of the day, before you've had much chance to think of it, you know, you've opened a bottle and you've drunk, you know, half a glass and you're thinking, hang on a minute, I swore I wasn't going to drink and I you know, and now I've broken it and now I'm an idiot and it's, it's it's yeah, I know, it's incredibly frustrating and I tried, Yeah, all sorts of, of, of ways to, to, to make promises to myself and, to, set rules on how many I would drink a day and which days I would drink on, and, when I would stop, and yeah, and, and, and just, just systematically it, I, I would break all of those rules.

Justine Clark: 8:33

So what was it then that after trying and failing to moderate, what, what was the, the moment, if you've got one, that made you realize

Barry Condon: 8:42

yeah, I guess. I mean, we're talking now over a period of, of maybe, five years that, that I, I mean, I stopped smoking in 2013 just after we moved, to the West. And, I also sort of started trying to become, healthier and, and eat better and, and work out. And I lost a lot of weight and, and, and everything was. improved, physically. And, but what that meant was that I was more often than not drinking on an empty stomach. I was lighter and, and even less able to, to, to tolerate drink. And it got to the point where, You know, I'd, I'd spend hours in the kitchen making these sort of healthy, food and, you know, but I'd be hoovering red wine and come to the dinner table, you know, quite drunk and, you know, I had two young teenage kids who, who I was just becoming more and more aware that I was, I was setting a bad example for. And it finally sort of came to a, a, a, a kind of rock bottom, when, I, woke up at the kitchen table, as the kids and, and my wife came in, in the back door and it was, it was about one or two in the morning, and I sort of, I lifted my head up and sort of saw this pool of blood on the, on the, on the kitchen table. And And sort of just wonder what the hell had been going on. And I sort of, my mind flashed back to, oh yeah, we'd been at this party. Drunk a bottle of wine before we went to the party. I proceeded to Hoover everything I could get my hands on while I was there. And eventually got, got sent home by my wife cause I was, you know, barely able to stand up. Stupidly, I, I, chose to ride my, ride my bicycle, home, even though, you know, as I said, I could barely walk. And I must have, at some point, come off my bike and, and, and bang my head against, something and smash my glasses into my, into my face and cut my, cut myself. in the end, yeah, the, the, the, the, the blood wasn't a big deal, but it was just, you know, seeing, the faces of my kids and, and, and, and my wife, you know, I could just see that, you know, she was just, her patience was at, at an end. And, And I just sort of said to myself there and then, you know, okay, that's it. You know, I've, I've struggled. To try and, you know, moderate and, and, and make rules here and there. And I, I've just got to stop. And, you know, I could just see that, that the, yeah, I can still see the, the, the look in the, in the, in the children's face, you know, that they were just sort of like, Oh my gosh, you know, you know, it's just, you know, the respect was just disappearing and, and, you know, they were. Like I said, you know, 14 and 17, and it was just sort of such a bad stage to be influencing them with, with this is this, this behavior was okay. So yeah, I, I, I stopped just like that. And, up the following morning and thought, well, how do I make this? Okay. How, how, how do I find, peace with this, this, this decision that, you know, how can it be that it's, it's, you know, I, I'd always looked at. Yeah. People who had to stop drinking, or people who did stop drinking as people, you know, the, the, you know, you're an alcoholic, you'll be miserable for the rest of your life. Wishing you were, able to drink and, constantly, yeah, unable to have fun. And, and I. Wasn't prepared to accept that that was going to be the rest of my life. And, and it, for whatever reason, that morning, it, it, it, it came into my head and it hadn't, you know, even though I'd used, the, the, the book by Alan Carr to stop smoking, I had never sort of associated, you know, stopping that addiction, With, the same, you know, that the method that he has for, for, for stopping smoking is to make you realize that the cigarette is actually doing nothing for you and it's all an illusion. And the beliefs we have about, you know, that it'll make you, more relaxed and it will make you concentrate and it'll make you. Less bored and, and, and all these things that, that, that people think they're getting from a cigarette, are just the addiction playing games in your mind. And, so I wondered, you know, does he have a book? Did he ever write a book on alcohol? And he did. And it, it, the book was pretty clunky sort of copy of, of, of the, the cigarette, the nicotine book. But it made me think, oh yeah, there is a way. You can actually change your beliefs about, alcohol, and get completely free and not feel that you're missing out. And quite quickly I found, the book by, Annie Grace, her, her book, this naked mind. And, yeah, that, that opened up. Yeah, everything forward because, you know, she came with, comes at it with, with science, to, to, show you that all the things we believe about alcohol are largely illusions. And, and comes with a psychology where you can, over time, deprogram the sort of subconscious thoughts we have and beliefs that we have about alcohol and, and, and why we want to drink. You can unpick those, with, with the techniques that she has. And yeah, no, it was just, just life changing for me and, yeah, when, when, I got the, the, the, the email asking if I'd be interested in, in, training to be, to be a coach, we're in the methodology. The first time I saw it, I sort of, you know, it was very soon, soon after I'd, soon after I'd stopped. But then, you know, when I, when I got, asked again, I guess it was probably five years later. I, I jumped at the chance because I just sort of realized that this, what it had given to me and, and I wish I'd known and been able to, realize that the, the, that, all the things that I believed weren't actually true, wish I'd known that, you know, in advance. 10 15 years earlier, or maybe even before I even started. Because yeah, it's, you know, I never expected, that people who didn't drink could actually be feel freer than the people who, who, who do drink. And, and, and that's, that's what it's, that's how I feel. I just think, oh, wow. You know, I, It's, it's just like how I feel about cigarettes, you know, God, no, I wouldn't, I wouldn't smoke anymore, you know, that, why would I, you know, it did nothing for me other than make me want another one. And, and, and it wasn't actually, it was taking away more than it was giving. And, and ultimately that's how I now look at, look at, at alcohol. You know, you get, you get, The brief highs, while you're drinking and, but it's actually what it does to you, in the moments when you're not drinking. It just makes everything else dull and, and less enjoyable and, makes you anxious and, and yeah, all these things, you know, I, I,

Justine Clark: 15:22

Barry, what I love, what I love about your story is that it's a story of a normal guy growing up. It's not a story of someone with a disease or a genetic disorder or an allergy. This is just how alcohol cumulatively over a long period of time can stop being something that you do in society to something that you start doing for yourself. And then this naked mind as a process enables us to sort of unpick those beliefs and as you say, the same is stopping smoking. It gives you both the science and a new way of creating beliefs that frees you in a way that you're more free than somebody who does drink alcohol.

Barry Condon: 16:05

yeah. I mean, cause we're, we're, I mean, from a young age, we're, we're at any age where we're marked to, so intensely that, alcohol is the, is the thing to do in every situation. And it's very, it made very aspirational. It's made very cool. And, and, and, and so, and it, and everyone's doing it, you know, even now, what are, what are the statistics? 87 percent in, in the Western world of people drink. And, you know,

Justine Clark: 16:31

well look, Barry, that's brilliant. You have given us a really good summary of your story. And I can see why you're a coach, and I can see why you're a brilliant coach. Because you've got the science, the compassion, and, all the belief.

Barry Condon: 16:43

Thank you.

16:44

If you're looking to take back control of your drinking, why don't you join our Alcohol Freedom Finders 30 day group program. It's a great place to start. Because we approach it as an experiment, rather than a challenge. Whereas, as well as getting a great detox, you learn the science and the psychology about why you're drunk in the first place. So whether you want to stop altogether, or just become a more mindful and moderate drinker, why don't you give it a crack? Use the link in the show notes to sign up to our next 30 day program, and you won't regret it. Because no one ever woke up in the morning and said, I wish I'd had more to drink last night, did they? Back to the episode.

Barry Condon: 17:25

so Justine. let's, switch and, hear a little bit about your backstory and, and how, what your relationship was like with, with alcohol and, and what led you to be, a coach. Yeah.

Justine Clark: 17:47

we drink. I'm a normal girl, normal lady, lived a normal life, and I actually just got to a point where I realised that I wasn't happy with how much I was drinking. That's the bottom line. There's no kind of, you know, getting caught doing something terrible or, any disastrous moment. But the truth is, my life wasn't one I was liking living. And I couldn't for the life of me work out how it, how I got there. So looking back now, I can see how I got there. I was, came from a small town where. Sport and drinking was something we did every weekend. From the age of 14, I was going to the rugby club rooms and drinking beer. We were also drinking and driving from a really young age in New Zealand. So that was, super dangerous and, but normalized. So not only was alcohol normalized, but drink driving was normalized growing up. It wasn't how much is too much, it was can I get away with it? So that's scary in itself really. I went to university and, although I'm a good girl and I like to tune up to my lectures, I can safely say that a lot of the lectures I was, not performing at my best at because I was hungover, so I probably didn't enjoy my lectures as much as I could of. And yeah, I got through my degree okay. But, there was certainly a lot of drinking and just such unhealthy drinking all around me, everywhere. And I think that I probably experienced my first, without knowing it at the time, my first feelings of feeling like an outsider, or did I do something stupid, or why don't I fit in? And this is all the day after, so we talk about anxiety now, but it certainly wasn't something we talked about then. I, I can remember now, I can bring that sensation to mind, a feeling that nobody really liked me. And, and that drove me to sort of want to go out more and be more fun and, and carefree. And then I'd, I'd be sort of confused why I felt less liked. Even though there was nothing explicit there, I just sort of, just felt the more I drank the less liked I was. That's on reflection, how I felt about university. That's it. I then went to drama school and there was less alcohol involved. So we don't live with my Nana for a while. And I remember going, Oh my gosh there's no wine or beer or anything around, I actually realized, I didn't realize I can look at it now and go, even then I'd started to normalize having wine in the evening as part of a, you know, de stressing or it's the end of the day moment. But things were sort of seemingly fine. I never for one minute thought that I had a drinking problem or that I was drinking too much. I just thought it was normal. And then it wasn't until, I had was flatting and living with friends that I realized that I was, had moved away from beer and was drinking more wine. And I remember this now just Drinking, being able to start to learn to drink a bottle of wine. And sometimes overcooking it and getting a bit sick. And you know, maybe being sick. Which isn't that clever or flash. But not for one second did I think I had a problem. Nor, at all. I did go on a bit of a health drive when I was in my early twenties. Because my dad was getting remarried. So I did stop drinking. I did this liver cleanse diet. And that's it. Did lots of exercise and I felt and looked amazing. I was like, wow, this is what I can look like. This is what good can look like. But even then I don't think I equated alcohol as the reason why I wasn't living my best life. I just sort of thought somehow I need to fit these two things together. Somehow I needed to manage to be both looking my best self and also being able to be a party girl. So then I moved to the UK, when I was in my twenties and it was a tough time because I didn't know anybody. I'd left my family, my friends, starting a career all over again. I'd gone from working in the film and television industry in New Zealand where I was doing really well to working in the basement of my uncle's law firm filing and au pairing. It was really tough. And at that point I was, Drinking by myself for the first time, drinking beer, and yeah, really feeling almost like I was drinking, not loneliness away, but I wasn't really in contact with my feelings in that way then I didn't sort of think about myself in that way, but I guess that's what I was doing. It was sort of, numbing myself to feelings, just numbing myself to feelings, just wanting to have a nice evening, you know? And then I started working in the city, and that was pretty fun. And once again, drinking every day was normalised. You go, you work all day, you go to the pub after work every day, you drink your bottle of wine, and then you go home. And you repeat, pretty much most days of the week. All normal, right? I'm a normal drinker. Just normal, normal, normal. Everything's just perfectly fine here. Nothing to say. Come from a family

Barry Condon: 22:54

amazing when you look back now and thinking that that's, that's the middle of the road. That's, that's, that's, that's, what, Obviously in New Zealand and in the UK and in Ireland and much of the world, much of the Western world, that's normal, not unusual.

Justine Clark: 23:09

So we're already talking about, before we go too far for both of us, family life, alcohol is involved. Sporting life, alcohol's involved, academic life, alcohol's involved, and social life, you know, alcohol

Barry Condon: 23:24

Did we say work? Yeah. Work

Justine Clark: 23:25

work, work. I forgot work. Yeah. And that's before, it gets into the realm of self which is, probably where I'll head next because then comes marriage and children and small children and I had no idea as an independent woman how I would feel. So all of a sudden be responsible for these two small creatures all of the time. So actually not being able, even not being able to go out, feeling a little bit trapped probably, that I couldn't go out. And you know, if, if the kids were sick, I couldn't go to work or couldn't go to the gym. If it was half term, I couldn't go to the gym. I didn't have many sort of outlets really for, for the, for escape. And, I started using alcohol as my escape. That connected in with the depression of being a, I guess, working in a, living in a society where I was the one that was at home with the kids and sort of feeling that the struggle of that, I think those two things combined and the accumulation now of years of drinking habitually meant that I had started drinking for myself to make myself feel okay at the end of the day and not

Barry Condon: 24:36

You give it, you give it another job to do. And that, that you don't realize it so much. It's not conscious choice, but yeah. When you, the more jobs you give alcohol to do, to celebrate, to, to, to commiserate or just to soothe or whatever it is. Yeah. The, the, the more jobs you give it, the more, ingrained it becomes.

Justine Clark: 24:57

And I think at that point I'd stopped having hangovers, really. I was able to drink, a reasonable amount, you know, and I was often drinking, Nick and I would drink, you know, share a bottle of wine and maybe open the second more often than not. And, but drink a lot, drink a lot more at parties. But I think I probably had almost permanent hangovers. low grade hangover and was doing a lot of exercise on top of the hangover as well. So really bad for your system to, to play really party hard and then still, try and train and, and do everything else besides. So I, then I felt like I was in a bit of a spiral, like you're talking about going, in the morning and today's not the day I'm going to drink. I'd go to the gym to start with, get all that done. Cook healthy meal for me and the kids and my husband. And then, but just really need something to lift me up, to make me special, make the day special, make, give myself meaning. So, yeah, enter wine and then repeat that cycle. So it was getting into a little cycle that I wasn't enjoying and wasn't liking. but it wasn't until I started having things happen like, my daughter started texting me a lot when I was out when you're coming home, mummy. Like they were worried for my safety. This is like a, I think from the age of my daughter being nine or ten, she just didn't like it. Didn't like, didn't want to give me a good night cuddle probably. Didn't like the smell of me. And I started, that started really impacting me as well. So that combined with the sort of anxiety and then I got a serious health condition as well. And I just thought, right, I'm Something's got to give. And let's not forget, I also had the moment with a bunch of friends one night out where, I can't really remember what happened. I'm guessing I must have said something hurtful. I know I said something hurtful. In fact, I said something hurtful. Something I would never say to somebody in the cold light of day. Something I'm not proud of. I wish I knew what it was because I actually don't even know what it was, but I know deep in myself that it would have been something. that they did not want to hear or didn't need to hear. And that friend was kind enough to tell me the next day that she didn't want to be around me anymore if I was going to be drinking. And that was it. That was like that sinking feeling in my whole body, knowing that something had to change because I couldn't live a life where I was feeling ashamed of myself at home and ashamed of myself socially. And it was affecting my health. So it's kind of, it sort of snowballed into this whole big thing of, who am I now? What is this? Is this who I am? And then I started going through the process of, unraveling. And I will say, the first time I came across the alcohol experiment, I knew what would happen at the end of that book. And I knew it meant stopping alcohol, so I couldn't read it. So my journey was a bit slower than yours, Barry. I ended up reading quite a lot of what's called Quit Lit, which is books about, stopping drinking. I did dry Januaries every year, like you, I spent about five years sort of, up to the point where it was a, an end of, end of day situation where I tried hypnotherapy. I tried three, you know, moderation. I tried all sorts of things, but for me, for me, for my story, I think it got to the point where I needed a good jolly look at things and a break. And ultimately discovering this naked mind. has put me here and alcohol over there. And the biggest thing for me was I realized it was not me, but there's nothing wrong with me, but I get to be the person that I want to be. I get to be the person that I'm proud of every day, turn up for myself every day. And I've put alcohol over there because that's not something I need to have in my life. Now, I'm not saying that for everybody, it's going to be the same too much for me. It's different to what too much for, for other people, you know, might be. But for me, the methodologies freed me from, freed me from a life that I didn't want to live. Yeah,

Barry Condon: 28:58

Yeah, brilliant. I mean, it's true. And it's, it's not that, we think that, that, you know, that, that no one should be allowed to drink and there are no rules. It's what, what for me, at least it, it may gave me a view. Allowed me to see that there was an alternative. And I, I, I know anything about that. There was quick lit or, or anything. I just thought it's Alcoholics Anonymous and I could never see myself walking into, you know, a church basement, and, and, and saying I'm an alcoholic.'cause I didn't really feel like an alcoholic. I, I, I drank too much. But, but it, it wasn't, you know, it wasn't what my idea was of an alcoholic, you know, the on a park bench drinking out of a brown paper bag, having lost everything. I was functioning really well. I, I had, you know, a good career. I had a lovely family and a mortgage and a house and, and, and, everything going for me other than, I would just, you know, couldn't get a grip on, on my drinking. And, it was, it's just such a shame looking back that, that, That I didn't know earlier that there were alternatives, that there are other ways to look at it and, and, and that it can feel like this, you know, that, that, that, that, yeah, it's amazing. I mean your, your story is, is, is I guess similar to my, different but similar to mine, that it's that no huge extreme, and yet at some point you switch and you're drinking to reward yourself, to soothe yourself, to, just to, you know, giving it that job, and, you know, even that sort of part of, of, of culture that it's, you know, that's what you do when you're stressed. That's what you do. You know, there's the, the sort of mummy wine culture, you know, that, you know, you deserve a drink at the end of the day and, and kids are hard work to have a drink and, and,

Justine Clark: 30:35

It's all true. they are hard work.

Barry Condon: 30:37

they are

Justine Clark: 30:38

weren't, but we weren't given any, the thing is, I, I, what this naked mind has done, For me, as it's given me alternatives, I feel like we're, what's that, program where Jim Carey was living in a bubble. Everyone's in the whole,

Barry Condon: 30:50

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Justine Clark: 30:51

in The, TV show.

Barry Condon: 30:53

Mm. The Truman

Justine Clark: 30:55

the, we're all in this Truman show situation where, you know, everybody has to be drinking alcohol in order to celebrate, commiserate, de stress, whatever. And that you have these moments where you go and detox or refresh, but by and large, we're in the system. that we're constantly, you know, going to the watering hole, whereas, You know, the opportunity for me to step outside of the watering hole scenario, outside of the Truman Show and look in at my life where I can safely get in a car any time of the day or night. So if my child needs me at three in the morning, I can get in a car and go and get her. And I get up every morning at six or seven. 7 and, you know, I can meditate and, but not feel like I'm half in it and half there and doing it because I have to, because I should. It's taken a lot of the shoulds out of my life. I can now, you know, assess things on their merits rather than how am I going to balance getting through to this point before I, it's a glass of wine time.

Barry Condon: 31:59

Yeah. And it's, it's, it's so difficult to, to imagine from, from, our old, the point of view of our old selves. That, that, that, that, that, that, that, that having the drink felt like the only time of relief, that only time of fun, the only time of actually Getting to relax and feeling okay. And so you think, well, how can not doing that be the answer? And, and the, the, the science, that I found so powerful in, in this naked mind, where you, you realize that it's, it's the aftereffect every time of a drink that's actually putting you in that sort of frail state of, of, of, heightened stress and lowered mood and low, lowered, susceptibility to pleasure that, that means that you end up needing to, to, to, to take something to, to bring you back up again each time. And so that becomes more and more, attractive when you're feeling, When, when life does get tough, it, it then becomes very quickly unbearable without it.

Justine Clark: 33:00

Look, the truth of the matter is. I didn't stop drinking because I didn't like drinking. At all. I stopped drinking because I couldn't bear how awful I felt the rest of the time.

Barry Condon: 33:13

Yeah. And, and it's amazing how much we put up with, when you think of what, you know, the, even from the beginning, you know, the hangovers, the throwing up, the, the, the, well, what we don't realize is that it, you know, when you think you've got over your hangover after a couple of days, You're, you're still actually, your body's still there preparing for the next one because it thinks, Oh, well, I don't want to go through that again. I'm prepared. And so it heightens its, its stress levels so that you don't get sedated too quickly and it heightens or it shuts down the, the receptors for, for pleasure. So it doesn't get overstimulated and, and cause it likes, it likes everything in balance and. And alcohol just sort of throws a grenade into your neurochemistry and, and, and, and shakes everything all the wrong way. And, but yeah, we, we take that as normal, that sort of, you know, the, Oh, this is what grown up life is, you know, life is, you know, mundane and, and, and stressful. And, you know, we have to wait for the weekend until we can have a few drinks to have fun. And that's what we're. That's what everyone, you know, is, is led to believe and, and, and experiences when you, when you're a regular drinker.

Justine Clark: 34:20

And I think the reason that I want to be a coach is because I want to reach out to the people who are frightened for themselves of admitting that they have a problem. Because they don't realise that they don't have a problem, it's alcohol that's the problem. But I want to be there for them to be able to, say, look, my story is not dissimilar to yours, I'm sure. And there is another way and, and not only is there another way, but, but it's, it's easy and it's liberating. So, that's why we're here telling our story.

Barry Condon: 34:53

100%, 100%, yeah, really well said. Shall we, shall we wrap up?

Justine Clark: 35:00

Yeah, that's good.

Barry Condon: 35:01

And, we'll be back, in a, with a new episode, very, very soon.

Justine Clark: 35:05

Lovely to speak with you always, Barry.

Barry Condon: 35:07

Yep, yep, see you soon.

Justine Clark: 35:09

Bye! Mhm.

Barry Condon: 35:10

Bye.

35:17

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